Woo: Shall we start with…the three guests, do you have questions for each other? You’d like to ask now? No? OK. Then I would open to the floor. Now, let’s see if you have any questions. After listening to the three presentations, do you have any comments? If you do, please raise your hand. Our helpers will pass the microphone to you.

Audience: This question is for Miss Patravadi. I was very impressed by your school.I was wondering, as you said it was a boarding school, so do some of the children have scholarship? Or supported by the government? How do the children attend the boarding school? How do they end up there?

Patravadi: My government doesn’t believe in art. In Thailand, artists are not respectable people. Nowadays, it’s much better. But when I was starting my career, people frowned being an artist. Anyway, the government doesn’t have money or anything to support the art, unless you are their friends, or unless you pay under the table. I’m sorry to say this. But I’m not their friend. They don’t like me. I don’t know why. I try to be nice. I work hard. But I’m very happy that my King likes me.
He passed away, so I’m in trouble. Anyway, it doesn’t matter.
I’m fine now. I’m strong enough. Anyway, I’m sorry, what did you ask?

Woo: He asks how the lucky students get into your school?
You pick them, or they apply, or they have special background to get in?

Patravadi: They can come in. They apply. I don’t have examinations for entering my school. I take them around, and if they say, I like it, I wanna be here- OK, you can, you come.
Some of them are retarded. Some of them have problems learning, they call them slow learners. Some of them are genius. I don’t mind they learn together, because I think children should know all kinds of people, and support them as much as they can. You know, my students, whom people say retarded, teach in many universities now. They might be retarded in a certain area, but not in everything, so we search what they’re good at, and we push them to that area. This is my job. Artists can do that. We use the art, not just to do plays. We use the art to see people, to search what they’re good at, and what they lack. And we give them the best.
That’s why I can bring a lot of artists, good artists in my country to help me with the school, because it’s so much fun for them to do that. They have to pay for the school. It’s not that expensive, but it’s not cheap. Sometimes when the parents can’t afford it, because sometimes business is good, business is bad, if they can’t afford it, I give them the scholarship, so that they can finish the school. I can do this, because I don’t need money any more. Soon I’ll die, so I don’t need any more money. But what happens after? I’m 70 now, you know, I don’t live that long. And my children support me and support the school as well. So, I’m fine. I’m fine. Thank you. Thank you.

Woo: Please pass the microphone to him. Sorry! We are recording, and are doing translation, so you must use the microphone. Thank you.

Audience: For the city or community to serve as textbooks, given our discussion on curriculum today, how feasible is it in traditional primary and secondary education? If the city or community is placed in primary and secondary education curriculum as textbooks, instead of having textbooks in the traditional classroom, because the community or the city contains a lot of knowledge, what difficulties will we face if it is not feasible? And if it’s feasible, what are feasible?

King: Of course, there is a gap between the ideal and reality.
It’s easy to do experiment. I face many Hong Kong secondary and primary school teachers. Very often they have a lot of ideas in their mind. But in the school systems and mechanisms, it’s difficult for them to get these things done.
Sometimes they want to bring a group of primary students to visit different communities. But the school may ask, how can we arrange insurance? How can we arrange coaches? These are logistics problems. As a result, experiments that we have in our minds cannot really be implemented. Is there a way to make things happen? I think the teachers can do it themselves, and to a certain extent, it is not really necessary to apply for permission. But in Hong Kong, in our education system, is it true that we really have to adhere to the culture of having to apply for permission before doing anything?
If we buy into all these rules too much, then a lot of experiments cannot be carried out. If you do not accept these rules, then many parents or colleagues will tell you off.
How can we strike a balance? I think this is the most important wisdom that a teacher needs to have. I see many good teachers. Some teachers take my course, and they may have been forced by me to carry out experiments with their students. They may be able to carry out one experiment, but it will be difficult for them to continue. So, the second condition is commitment. They must have the belief that communities serving as textbooks is truly good for the students and will make them grow. With this kind of commitment, all those rules and the reprimands do not really matter.

Audience: Thank you to the three speakers for their sharing.
I want to go back to a fundamental issue. Today we are talking about experiments, innovation and tradition. Apart from innovation in the artistic forms and also your practice in education, have you tried to preserve traditional values deliberately? What are those traditional values in Hong Kong, Thailand, and mainland China? Did you try your best to extract materials from the traditional spirit? If so, what is traditional spirit?

Peng: The essence of the traditional opera education, and the traditional classical elements cannot be ditched. As I said, one of the functions of traditional art education is that it makes you look back while the society moves forward. It makes us reflect on ourselves, so as to improve ourselves, and possibly to change the eco-system. If we ditch the quintessential things of tradition, and just talk about innovation, it’s not feasible. I’m not sure if I have answered your question.

Patravadi: You know in the school, I have many trees, and I always show them to my students. You see this tree, it grows from a seed. It’s so tall because it has roots going down, very deep in the ground. And the trees that I bought, they cut their roots. I bought them from somewhere, very expensively.
It has no root. I have to take very special care, a lot of things to stop it from falling. It never grows. It’s there, looking the same years after years. So you see, even trees, they must have roots. Human beings must have roots. We learn all the classics. We learn all the basic things to build our roots. That’s very important. When we have roots, we will grow, and will have fruits and all kinds of things. The big trees will have birds and bees, and other people seek shelters from them, so that they can be useful to everybody else, and bear a lot of fruits, because the roots go deep down. So, we teach a lot of classics. We teach classical music, dance and literature, and then we do the play to have fun with it. We do the play, because we want to show the students how they can have fun using the old things, and make it new for them. That’s contemporary. But if they don’t have the roots, they can never do contemporary well. And that applies to everything, including cooking, living, philosophy and everything.

King: I think tradition is being determined by each generation of people. If, as I say, a city is like a canvas allowing us to place whatever we want on it, then the biggest problem is that the canvas in front of us contains a lot of things already. So, each generation of people has in front of them a very complicated canvas or frame, and choices have to be made to give up something. And is there only one option? In fact, that’s not the case. Let me give you an example. Now, we all hate the shopping mall culture. However, for those who grow up with the shopping mall culture, their tradition is the shopping mall culture after a few decades. So, to a certain extent, for the next generation, the shopping mall culture is their tradition. The world keeps on changing. Originally, farming was not our tradition. But now there are people who dig up the deep hidden layers in the canvas. I think the change in education depends on the generation of people we can train, and what kind of vision they have in excavating from traditions?
What do I think tradition should be like? I think it should contain the ways to behave and to live, or experiences and skills. As for skills, I don’t think human beings have changed a lot. The skill is called design. If we have design skills, then every generation of people would have the ability to uncover the tradition of their generation, and eventually they can build society.

Audience: I would like to share something that I have learnt from their presentations. Back to the previous question- if there is any specific way to continue the tradition. For example, when I was in Taipei, I was a legislator of the legislature. I did something very important. Say for example, our native language, our native language is fading away every day. It’s the same everywhere in the world. If you teach the native language as a knowledge, it cannot be applied in immediate use straight after acquisition. In Taiwan, we have implemented local education for over a decade, but it’s been a failure. It’s become elite training used by the school to train up students to take part in nationwide competitions. But after getting prizes and awards in competitions, the students forget what they have learnt. Because there is no application in real life. So, what did I do at the time? For learning a native language, it doesn’t matter whether it’s a compulsory or elective course. What matters is how you teach it. So, I invited many ethnic groups to work with our cultural department.
We collected the memory of every ethnic group, which embraces the techniques resulted from their ancestors’ wisdom, and the lifestyle and habits passed on to them.
We incorporated this into the native language courses, and we promoted courses like this. We designed many interesting activities, a bit like Patravadi’s activities. We gave the kids an assignment: what if you are a little diplomat? Then you have to use your native language and ethnic culture to show other people the essence of your own ethnicity. This is what I want to share with you. Another point is about traditional opera.
In Taiwan, the kids have many options these days, so you can’t expect them to put up with hard work. I think it’s just moral persuasion. Then we told the students, if you want to be an actor, dancer, scientist or program designer, you are one of many people. But for special techniques, like Peking opera, bangzi and the like, if you don’t do it, the tradition will stop.
So, we give them a sense of mission. When we educate the students, we are not just refining the techniques, but are letting them know, through acquiring techniques, how meaningful and valuable the whole thing is. Because of you, the values of the tradition will be enlivened. As Prof. Siu has said, let the students of today use their souls to put on their own colours on tradition, then they will stay at our school.
They will not choose to drop out. Many of the things that we are doing are in fact a spiritual reminder to them. Though we still have many kids dropping out, many good ones choose to stay. I’m going to talk about the design of Prof. Siu. The city is like a textbook. How can we put this into primary and secondary schools? Many things are free in Taiwan. I mean many things don’t us cost any money. We only need a concept. For example in Taiwan, we know schools are the centres of community. I don’t know if this is the case in Hong Kong because Hong Kong is a metropolitan area. However in Taiwan, the school is set up at a meeting point in the rural area. In the evening, the school is turned into a community centre. Many people, businessmen or peasants alike, and parents will go to the school for activities after work. It depends on whether the headmaster of the school endorses it. But if we can combine the educational policy with this concept, we can be successful. For example in Taiwan, when we developed our curriculum, we say, let’s build a school-based curriculum. When that’s the case, all teachers and the headmaster will think about what is the base of the school? What unique features do we have? They will look for resources in their neighborhood, from the elderlies, the old architecture or cultural relics left by the ancestors. For example, we have blacksmiths, blacksmith stores, or duck raising peasants and so on.They would find their unique features, and would figure out ways to combine them with their courses, activities and performances. Many other schools will come here to observe. Now we don’t have to transport groups of people to a certain spot. We have so many convenient equipment of education that we can share the experience through visual aids. In addition, as the leaders of higher education, what roles of education universities play?
We should have a plan for the big hands holding small hands.
Prof. Siu, you work in the Poly U, and you are in such a multi-disciplinary setting, and you work with people of different origins and identities. You are a designer. You know that design is about the re-generation of a city, so design should be given higher priorities. I talked with Mr. Goh and Director Lee in the few days. I said social design is the key to the future development of a country. Designers like you should be the leaders. Why? Because he has to build a concept first. He can see the future of a city. If the future is seen, he can carry out his campaign of big hands holding small hands. He may bring the students from high schools and primary schools, and also their teachers to do a task. We don’t have to pay for them. It’s about policy. For example, if this policy is included in the assessment by the Ministry of Education, will the headmaster carry it out? Of course, the headmaster will do it. I want to say that Patravadi’s presentation is very good.That is what we call experimental education in Taiwan. We have publicly and privately funded projects like this. I think delaying specializations until senior years of university may be a trend of future development.
Knowledge may be wiped out, but our capabilities can be refreshed time and again. This is what I want to say. Thank you to all of you for the wonderful presentations.

Woo: Thank you. Let’s see if we have more questions.

Audience: According to the three speakers, it seems that tradition is when a group of people, who through their knowledge and reflections, use their skills to do and make something. So, it seems that this is basic competencies. And just now, Miss Peng talked about trainings. The students are asked to write down some words, and then they laugh according to the words that they have put down. As the students laugh, the teacher laughs too. I understand that everybody should exercise his own imagination. Laughing from the heart is the best way of laughing. So how can we strike a balance? Students need some basic knowledge. In the past, people have developed some excellent skills. Then how can we strike a balance? If they lack the skills, they can’t do or make anything, then they won’t be able to express themselves in their own way. And now the emphasis seems to be on self-expression. The elements which need to be preserved in traditions seem to have disappeared. As for preservation, it’s about how we interpret the spirit of the discovery or the power of awakening when things happen.

Peng: I will speak in Mandarin, OK?Is it OK? Actually, it’s about techniques and performance. It’s about the relation between your vocal techniques and performance. You have to master the techniques first. If you are to act, laughing is a vocal expression. Vocal expression is related to your breath. This is a process that you must go through. The pitch of laughing and the length of the breaths are both supported by the breaths themselves. And the point where sound is produced must be right. The laughter I just mentioned is about acting from the internal emotions, how to express the emotions. So, these are questions of two different nature, and with no co-relation. You need to master the technique first, before entering the characters’ inner worlds. But without the techniques, without the voice, you cannot enter it readily. Because Chinese opera involves a gradual learning process. That’s the reason why it takes 6 to 8 years to learn. The intensive training from 6 to 8 every day is a way to master the techniques, then we can get into experiencing the inner world. I don’t know if I’ve explained clearly enough.

Woo: Any follow up?

Audience: Tradition seems to entail people discovering things.
This is their awakening. So how can we help students? It’s not a problem to teach them techniques. But how can we enlighten them? In fact, they can discover further techniques.
The techniques we teach were discovered by people of an earlier time.

Peng: I think that’s the case. Every generation is teaching.
Every generation is learning. You need to use your own methods to inspire the students’ interest, to let them discover more new aspects, so that they are more interested in what they are doing. As I said, apart from teaching the traditional elements, I would enliven my teaching through creative work.
I would find some interesting subjects to co-create plays with the students, and let them directly face the audience on the stage. I think this is what they are interested in. They want to perform, to express, to let people know what they have learnt, and get their recognition and appreciation quickly.
As I said, we combine creation, performance and learning in our educational model, and I’m the pioneer of this model in our school. There was no such practice before. I hope that through incorporating the elements that the students are interested in, we can inspire them to learn, so that their interest in learning will grow, and that they will devote themselves to it, with passion and joy.

King: I interpret your question this way. Starting from personal experience, after they have learnt something, they can pick and choose from traditions. As Miss Peng has just explained, there are different types of laughs. I think this point of view enhances the students’ sensitivity. When they go to the city in the future, they will observe and experience that there are many different ways to laugh. They will pay attention to issues relating to laughs, to watch how other people laugh. They may be able to identify some special characteristics. From their own personal experience, they develop richer ideas about laughs. Then they will be more sensitive to the act of laughing in the city. In the future, their choices will be based on these experiences.

Audience: May we also teach them the sincerity towards art?
Otherwise they will have an ulterior motive when they laugh.
They may need to make money, that’s fine. But if the motive is wrong, then it will be problematic.

Woo: Let’s see whether there are other responses or comments from the floor. Let those who haven’t spoken speak first.

Audience: I’d like to have a dialogue with Miss Peng. Just now, the three of you gave your views on tradition, but your concepts sound different. Miss Patravadi is of the view that tradition is a way of learning. Mr. Siu’s view is that it is a way to discover society or identity. And Miss Peng seems to say that tradition is a purpose, it is an answer. At the beginning, you said that you hope that through this exchange, you will discover how you can enable students to be more creative and free? Is Chinese opera an answer in itself?

Peng: Question for me?

Audience: Yes.

Peng: I think Chinese opera itself is a traditional culture.
It has 800 years of history. Counting from Qinqiang, bangzi has 400 years of history. Hebei bangzi, from the Daoguang period of the Qing dynasty, has existed over 200 years. It itself is a kind of the traditional culture. Back to the topics that we have covered. Actually, I have been working on traditional culture… Our college is government funded. I always aim at cultivating our students to be professional actors for sure.
They are not only professional, they also have to be elite actors, who can lead the development of the environment and eco-system of this area. So, I position it as a mode of elite education of the tradition culture. Like you said, the answer lies in the Chinese opera itself. It itself is a kind of traditional culture, and I work on the more orthodox form of traditional culture.

Danny: Let me speak in Mandarin, if I have to converse with Peng Huiheng. It’s interesting that you keep describing yourself as a craftsman. You actually have many queries about yourself. You talked about how to keep pace with the society, and whether it is possible to step ahead of society, and hence the discussion on creativity. On a personal level, you are constantly exploring room for development in your interaction with the students. But you are also the headmaster of your college, a leader. That of a department.
A leader of a department. So, as a leader of a department, you describe yourself as a craftsman. To put it in English, it’s a self-critique, looking into the relation between art and technique. I think this is an important step, especially for the art and educational institutions in China. As a bit of vindication, you started talking about how to reform. I’m curious about how a reform can be carried out. Of course, a reform involves different dimensions, and we just had a lot of discussion about that. We talked about the existing values.
Are we also questioning if these values are right? If some notions of these values are not right, what should we do?
You also said that working in a government-funded institution, you have to accomplish certain tasks, which are mandatory. But you continue to question yourself. I feel that this questioning is important. From questioning the relationship between you and the students, you feel that you are a bit disconnected from the society. How do you deal with this disconnection? How do you turn your relationships with the students into a curriculum? I often ask myself, in the educational reform, how much effort have we put into research? Is there anyone studying the outcome of your attempts? If not, it’s a problem. No one is telling you how you can take your next step with all that you are doing. Looking to the future, will we have a more advanced concept of reform for Chinese opera, or that of traditional performing art?
These are all related to the system. After listening to your presentation, I have a lot of reflection. What I want to say to King Siu is -
You have been very bold in developing the curriculum. I don’t know how much pressure and restrictions the Poly U has put on you. Based on the associate degree programme, you are introducing this two-year top up programme. You are making use of what is given to embark on something new. But do you have a blueprint yourself? How much effort have you put into developing this blueprint? I’m very curious. Everybody is disappointed with tertiary education, because there is no strategy, and no blueprint for tertiary education these days.
There is no think tank as such. I do admire what you are doing, but then of course, things have to be progressive.
Even though your topic is social innovation and urban innovation, it actually touches on many aspects. But how can you promote it? Are the problems related to resources or manpower? Or is there a lack of momentum for it to develop into an educational movement? So on and so forth. Now there are different educational organizations, the PTU and so on. What have they done? Do they interact with you? Is there a think tank within Poly U? Are you moving towards that direction? Are you working on its development? It is very interesting that Peng Huiheng follows the system that she is in, and you follow another system which you are in. There are comparisons and competitions in between. All of you have ideals. Ideal things that there are opportunities in Hong Kong, and that’s why we have you. So, you are a leader. What will a leader do next? I’m very curious.

Danny to Patravadi: Patravadi, then I’ll speak English. I think what you have is a very unique example of when we gave up on existing policy, or the existing institution, or existing infrastructure, then you just develop a new infrastructure. But I’m very curious about whether you're getting any critique, or any commentary of what you're doing? And where can you proceed for the next step? I’m very curious about that, because we talk about dramaturg to make drama further develop. We talk about education critique or research to make education move forward. But I'm very curious about this. Of course, now the old king is gone. Of course, you are still doing what you are doing. You’ll continue to do that until the day, OK. I’m older than you are, so I’d probably be gone before you do. But what I’m thinking is, what is the next step?
Because you know, it’s so easy when I do things like that.
It’s easy to be very self-congratulating, you know, because so feel so good, because you are doing all the things. But what is really needed? Because I was really admiring what you did, particularly in the archiving area, archiving old artists. And I see that you are inviting different artists, so you do believe in innovative education, having different cross-cultural scholars or artists to come in to share with you. But what kind of comments and critiques they have towards your educational institution, which is a very important experiment? I’m very curious about that. But I know that we don’t have that much time, so we can continue the discussion maybe on a personal basis. Thank you so much. I think all three of you are wonderful, such a contrast about how you deal with your institution.

Woo: OK, the last few minutes. Do you have any responses to Danny? Respond afterwards? Respond back stage?

King: We all know that there are so many difficulties. Today's topic is about experiment, so the best thing is to use experiments to create examples. If the examples are well received, then it is possible to call forth many partners into collaboration. My view is, at the beginning, I work with those from different departments who share the same vision. We work together and create some examples. If the example is successful, then the next step is to expand a bit. This is sometimes the price of an experiment. Sometimes it can be successful, and sometimes not. If it is successful, then it is possible for us to pull together more resources.

Danny to Siu: You’re talking about experimentation is too easy, because earlier you said that, which I totally disagree.
Of course, undisciplined experimentation is very easy. You just try different things. But true experimentation must be very systematic and very rationally built on something. When you fail, you look back, and say, let me try a different kind of experimentation. I think that’s so important. But I think what we have nowadays is such a lack of true experimentation. I mean like Patravadi is doing true experimentation. It’s a case study, that we can really calculate it. What did I see? What I saw is some interesting, and some maybe not so interesting.
But she’s trying, so we can comment on it. Well it’s my comment about when you said experimentation is too easy, just that term.

King: Well, I think you have deliberated on that particular term. I think the experimentation on a canvas is easy. But what I am saying is- when it comes to experimentation in the city, it’s not easy. There are a lot of mechanisms… Anyway, things are not easy. I think we all understand. I mean experimentation on the canvas is relatively easier. Now as we talk about education today, I thought the audiences were students between 16 to 25 years old. If we cannot induce the primary and secondary students into carry out an easy experiment, then the older they get, the less courageous they will be in carrying out experiments. So, it’s worthwhile to start with easy experiments. We have to nurture the spirit of experimentation gradually, then they know it’s not easy to do experiments.

Woo to Patravadi: Patravadi, do you think your experiment is successful or not?

Patravadi: So many languages, I’m a little bit confused.
Anyway, when you say education is reinventing tradition, but for me, education is studying history and tradition. We understand it really well, so we learn where we come from.
It’s like you have deep deep deep roots, so the tree will grow.
Sorry. If you have deep deep deep roots, the tree will grow very tall. There are a lot of branches. I have a tree in my school that the roots are cut, because it was bought from other provinces. And that tree never grows. It’s always the same, unhealthy. Oh, I believe in deep deep root, and really enjoy the roots. And every day I teach them the old things, history and classical stuff. If they are talented enough to do classical, then they will, but the not so talented ones will do the contemporary. I hate to say that. You know their arms and legs are kind of not coordinate, so they do the contemporary. That’s fine. That’s a new tree. But the classical is still alive and beautiful. There are so many kinds of people. And all my students- I don’t have that many, only 15 students in my class.
You know, there is about 100 students or something in the whole school. But every student is different. Some are great in classical because they understand it and they love it. Let them do the classical. Some are great in being awkward and doing silly things. Let them do it. That’s why in the forest, there are so many trees. They are all different. Why we create the same tree? It’s boring, so we give all the trees a chance to grow, to have their own individuality. And that is what education is all about.

Woo: Thank you. Sharon, you’d like to make a final remark, concluding remarks?

Audience Sharon: I’m sorry that at the end to throw so many questions, but I hope this is also an ongoing conversation. I just want to put it out, not expecting a full engagement with it. I’m sorry I’d use English at this point. I think that I want a problem-enticed discussion about tradition, and there are certain assumptions in each place, Hong Kong, Thailand and mainland China, each of these with very different context.
But one thing that seems common, and I think that we should examine more critically, is that there seems to be certain assumptions about tradition. So, I think we need to examine why do we have that? Why do we think that tree roots deep are good things? Why do we think that the roots are always strong? You know, if we think about like, let’s say, traditional Chinese culture, if we take it as a framework for comparison, perhaps you would say traditional culture, dance, play, music, that you could say apparently, it’s good culture and we can keep the tradition. What is Hong Kong? Hong Kong tradition, what Hong Kong tradition is? What is it if it we don’t think about it only as culture? If we say that tradition is not just culture, if not just discussing about it within the cultural context, what is Hong Kong? What is Thailand tradition?
If we open it up, beyond culture, institutionally, politically.
You know, Hong Kong tradition is colonial, colonized, and now it is it Chinese? How much do you want to play? I think this is the very problem of tradition. When we say reinvent it, do we want to reinvent it? What is it? So, I think these are fantastically provocative, interesting, but I think it leaves a lot room for critique, that I think would be very valuable going forward.

Woo: Thank you. It’s about time today. Regarding tradition, especially for Hong Kong, because we have a lot of-
maybe we are just simultaneous interpreters, and we can switch channels, that I can switch to Putonghua and Cantonese very easily. Maybe that’s the tradition, one type of tradition of Hong Kong, you know. I think we are not looking for answer.

Woo: We are not here to find a conclusion. Everybody can come to his own conclusion about the Hong Kong tradition.
There is no firm conclusion. We’ll continue tomorrow.
Tomorrow, we will start at 3. The theme is cross-cultural and cross-discipline discussion. There will be four speakers tomorrow, from Hong Kong and overseas. So, please come at 3 sharp. Let’s give our speakers a big hand. Thank you.