Part 6: Dialogues
Woo:
Now in the next part, we will invite the guests to come up to the stage to have a panel discussion. So, do you have any questions? Any reponse?
Chen Po-han:
I have learnt a lot really, especially about social participation through art. Very often we work with art to express its great possibilities. For example, when we stage an art performance, we regard it as the stage of the society. This is the case in Taiwan. In our curriculum- I have just mentioned the integration of the courses of 12-year curriculum, from primary 5 to the fourth year of university. We have discovered that there is a limitation in every stage of the curriculum. With the current practice, lessons are divided by disciplines, and so teachers teach each lesson based only on the outline of the curriculum. However, many capabilities are nurtured across different disciplines. So, my response is, we should break the boundaries in the school curriculum or education curriculum. Every subject is regarded as important, but if we don’t renounce the mentality of departmentalism, it won’t be beneficial to the study of students. Everyone thinks his subject is very important and that it should be designated as compulsory course. This mentality impedes education.
I think there is still one very important course called the marginalized course. Marginalized course refers to the overlapping part resulted from the interaction of many capabilities. This part deserves the most attention, as all the different capabilities relate to it. And this particular part is helpful to every learner. Such a course is not offered in the traditional curriculum at schools. So, what I think is- the young kids go to the museum, and they use different methods to analyze, think and explore. Through such exploration, if they engage in performance art, they are capable of expressing the so called social text, our values and attitudes, and the reflections of the society. Before coming to Hong Kong, I told my department head that when I returned, we should discuss the possibility of having fewer subjects.
We want a bigger course, and we want to take it to many different places. For example, we have a group of veteran soldiers, who appreciate certain kinds of art.
They like Chinese opera, and it’s the feature of our school. Can we bring these lessons into the scripts for drama, so that we arrive at art appreciation, healing or the possibility of re-writing, or the contemporary expression of traditional art. Through the act of such a course, I let every kid rediscover himself, and find his own ability in performing arts. I think you all are working on this. The puppets especially.
I think that it’s very powerful that you have combined teaching methods with materials, and built a very big network with them. With every seed in every province, every kid can readily enjoy the benefits. I think we can all work along this line. I have really learnt a lot.
Woo:
Any constraints about evaluation and assessment?
Lynn:
I care most about evaluation and assessment. We have to live in the real world. This is a real world. We raise money from external entities, sponsors and the government.
How can we show them all the things we are doing? Not only art education, but also life education and training for the youths. So, I’m most interested in doing research. Simon, you have trained so many teachers in China, how do you do evaluation and also assessment of students? How do you assess your students and your courses? If you can also share…Assessment is very problematic because we have to convince outsiders so as to get… not to say appreciation, that is ridiculous, but rather to get their understanding.
Simon:
Let me supplement some background information so that you will know more about the situation on the Mainland. After 2014, the State Council issued a temporary document stating that drama, traditional performing arts, TV and film culture can be included in high schools as aesthetic education for the senior years. As for primary and secondary schools, they can implement it based on their abilities. In September last year, this document formally became the No. 71 document of the State Council, which means it is a statutory order. In the future, in China, drama, Chinese opera, traditional performing arts, TV and film culture can be implemented in senior secondary school. Educationalists’ understanding is that China needs university students who have the ability to appreciate art and culture. So, this will start in kindergartens. That’s why the development on the Mainland is so fast. But the situation has not reached the level as described by Lynn regarding assessment. Because on the Mainland, we are just talking about what the curriculum should be.
We now offer different options to officials in different places. Say for example in kindergartens, do you want to work on exploration of growth? Natural exploration? Cultural exploration? We give them indicative information. We have done these kinds of studies in Hong Kong.
From 2007 to 2014, we have done researches for 7 years.The City University and Ming Ri Institute conducted research to find out if children who have learnt through drama perform better than those who haven’t. The result of our study is positive.
In terms of language proficiency, communication ability, creative ability, and interpersonal skills, they are better than other ordinary students. The reports of our studies are available on the 2 websites hosted by Ming Ri Institute. One is our official website, the other is named “Children’s Theatre”, which provides information and resources on drama education to schools. It was funded by the then Education Bureau. The reports contain all the relevant information. In the future, we will bring those methods illustrated in those reports into China. As for the methods we are using now, we took reference from the performing arts course in Taiwan. When it comes to assessment, we are assessing the educational impact made by the teachers.
We are not assessing the students yet. We are doing an experiment. After students complete their learning, what will they become? The greatest difficulty in carrying it out on the Mainland is that their educational objectives are mainly abstract and non-specific. What the officials say needs interpretation. On the Mainland, there are interpretation notes on every policy, much like interpreting the Bible. When we present the outcomes of art education to various education authorities, we cannot be abstract or vague. We need to be specific. You can only carry out assessment on whether the goals have been reached if you are certain what the goals are.
Woo:
When will you start to implement?
Simon:
In 2017, we will work on the teaching materials. From 2017 to 18, we will do the drama courses. We have just completed the outline of 4 drama courses and also the part for primary 4.
Woo:
Primary 4?
Woo:
Primary 4?
Simon:
Primary 4. After that we will work on primary and kindergartens levels. It will be at least 2020 before we finish. We cannot go much faster even if they are fast. We hope we can do education in the secondary level. If Zuni goes into secondary schools, that would be perfect, then we don’t need to do anything. When it comes to working on the Mainland, it’s never a must that we have to do everything. We always look for strategic partners, and we are now identifying collaboration partners from other subjects. We are working with a Taiwanese art teacher on drama and art.
And with Prof. Zu Zhuoye from Nanjing Normal University, we are working on exchange between music and drama. So, these are the things that we will do. We are still far away from what Lynn said about assessment. But we know what our path will be.
Woo:
There can only be assessment after all these are done, right? If not done, then there can be no assessment.
Simon:
We are now only in the stage of teacher training.
Chen Pi-Han
I’d like to give a brief response. When I was in the Legislature Yuan, I proposed the aesthetic education plan, which is a medium- to long-termed plan. It’s called artistic literacy in the Mainland, and it was under the charge of by Mr. Lu Yi-sheng, the then director of Beijing Dance Academy. When I was promoting the aesthetic education plan, I met him in Taipei. I told him that I entered the legislature to promote this plan. The Ministry of Education and other government departments joint forces in setting it into motion in 2014. In the first stage of the experimentation, we started with visual art in secondary schools, including junior and higher levels. We conducted a 2-year experimentation course, which entailed not only abstract elements, so we started with visual art. Why started with visual art? Because most people identify the society through vision. A professor from Hamburg has divided it into 8 dimensions.
After the experimentation, it’s implemented all over the nation, with the involvement of students. It led to an outcome, which is assessment, as you said. And from next year, this outcome-In Taiwan, we have curriculum outlines, and the element of aesthetic quality is included in the curriculum outlines of 2018. It’s implemented in a cross-discipline manner. With results from the experimentation with visual art, we now have 6 hours of lessons in each semester, from junior to high secondary levels.
It’s promoted as a compulsory course. We begin to work on the education for kindergarten kids at the same time. How do we do aesthetic education from a young age? How to implant its roots? We have a system and have consulted schools of various levels. We are doing a cross-disciplinary experimental course on aesthetic education, which is expected to take 2 years. I’m the initiator of this scheme. This scheme was passed because that was my first mission for joining the legislature. In fact, of the five objectives of learning, aesthetics has been neglected for too long. Many people just don’t know how to work on aesthetic education. I’m very glad that you talked about this topic. Put this in the cross-strait context, we have been doing this all along. And the Mainland is doing fine, and the State Council has formulated a way of implementation in the white paper. In Taiwan, besides the white paper on aesthetic education, we have the Asia-Pacific Office for Aesthetic Education, which we can invite people to join when we have social participation, because the art activities are not narrow in scope.
We are not only doing performing arts. We are working on aesthetics, and aesthetic educations includes art education, and also elements to do with quality to a larger extent. The aesthetic education in Taiwan is wider in scope. Let me give a brief response. I believe the part concerning quality would have great impact on our national education of the future. We can also exchange on the information on Taiwan.
Thank you.
Kok Heng Leun:
In our case, because sometimes we take up projects that there isn’t any kind of model of evaluation, so we have to create our own model of evaluation. So, take for example, over the last 5 years, we were working on trying to move the government into thinking of, from the policy perspective, how to look at the end-of-life issues in Singapore, because we are in an aging society. And it’s a very complex issue, it’s not just about how to die, so that evaluation, at the end, wasn’t really just about the stories of how many elderlies start to think about and know that importance of how to prepare death. What then became important was actually to excavate the system that’s at work. So, we actually started to create a map of networking.
We started to look at all the social resources, all the community resources that are available, and the governmental policy that has been available. We look at how they are linked, so we realize that one institution was doing this particular aspect of end-of-life, and another institution was also doing that, but they are not connecting. So, the map would show what is lacking. And because we didn’t take it as a one-off project, so we are now moving into our next 3 years, so it will go into its eighth year in the next 3 years. So, we started to look at all these networking to know what is lacking. And we started to create different conversation that allows them to happen, and then also map the kind of resources that are lacking. And this is not just a report to ourselves, we actually send them to the government, and resend them to the agencies. We talk to the agencies and say, “This is lacking, you are not talking to them, we are going to do a project, let’s do the talking from there.” So, by creating the network, you actually started to make the communities feel a lot of time that, hey, I actually have a lot of social resources and community resources that we can use, and that a lot of time I feel that we don’t know, we think that I can only deal with this problem myself.
So, our work, and I have actually worked closely with the intermediary, and this group of them helps me a lot, so I would think of the creative work. They would help me to analyze, and then we started to look at all the various possibilities and how to deal with all these gaps. And then we evaluate the gaps again, so this group also helps me do a lot of connection with various agencies, so we talk to the ministries and the hospitals. So, when hospitals realize that the way the hospitals is designed wrongly, especially how they are treating the patient when the patient is at the last moment. And then, for example, the family members want to know how the patient is feeling, right? But because of all the safety people think, so they would have all the curtains, right? They realize that losing human contacts between the patient and the family members, so the hospitals started to rethink how to actually rearrange the equipment so that all these don’t become a problem. Yes, there is a lot of work in that kind of networking and finding out the map. That’s how I would evaluate my work.
Woo:
Now that you are in the new environment-We have just talked about evaluation.
Li Siu Leung:
My first reaction is why is Lynn so into the establishment? Because all these are the system’s required specifications, so it’s outcome-based education.
Lynn:
No, I don’t think outcome-based is right.
Simon:
I’m just being sarcastic. In fact, we have been discussing all along. Mr. Wong has done a lot of work in educating the teachers in Mainland China. I have a strong feeling, and the feeling is much stronger after I changed jobs. With the existing establishment, how much room do we have for maneuvering? In our discussion, we haven’t questioned the establishment. We are working very hard within the establishment but how much can we do? Now at 5, I have to do enrolment.
Woo:
Lynn, do you have any response? I think he means, why are you so concerned about assessment?
Lynn:
If you had asked me about assessment 20 or 25 years ago, I would have said, “are you kidding?”. I am doing art, why do I need to do assessment? But I have to handle fundraising and do strategic planning. So, I have to strike a balance among a lot of things. How do we want to move forward? During our discussions here, we understand one another well, which is good. Yet, we have to influence people externally.
For example, after Sadiq Khan assumed office as the Mayor of London, he made a lot of contact with the cultural sector. Recently in November, he organized the London Curriculum Festival. There is population of 8.6 million in London. He mixed the subjects, such as history, geography and language, that should be taught at primary schools, and then all the schools have to go out of the classroom. They went to River Thames for site visits, so in this way, art and learning are connected. You may say that this is very pro-establishment, but you may also say we can finally bring our art and creativity to the street, so that more people can appreciate it. It is better this way than to be misunderstood by people, who always question what you are doing.
Woo:
I’d like to give a response. The assessment that you referred to is not giving grades such as A, B, C, D. Instead, it refers to a long-term study, like what Li Siu Leung has mentioned about cultural studies, part of which is to help society to assess many phenomena.
Lynn:
I’m referring to both.
Woo:
In our society, we need less products with rating, but more in-depth analysis and assessment.
Lynn:
I think it should be qualitative.
Woo:
Even if you want to explain things to the officials, you don’t want to say that you have a 5-star or Michelin 3-star rating and the like. Especially in education, you want to say that this curriculum is suitable for this type of children and that curriculum is suitable for that type of students.
Lynn:
The benefits have to be well understood.
Some parents don’t understand what we’re saying because there is no tutoring and no examination.
Woo:
Education is unique because it’s now like a consumer product. When we were small, education was not a consumer product. We learnt what the teacher taught us. We didn’t complain about things being too difficult. We didn’t ask if things could be made easier. Now the students would do so. The relationship is a bit different. When it comes to assessment and participation, will participation improve things? Or will participation lead to even more problems? Sorry, as the moderator, I have to manage time.
And today there is no chance for you to ask questions, so there isn’t any participation. We talked about participation today, but you cannot participate. This is quite an irony. But there are other channels, like Facebook. We will not end here, even if we end this forum. We will continue to be concerned about education. I would like to thank the APA, that is Li Siu Leung’s stage, for lending us this venue, and also the Art Education Centre of APA for giving us this chance to conduct this forum. I hope that in the future, we can use this venue again to have exchange with the education sector.
Thank you, speakers.